You're listening to the Together in Literacy podcast, a podcast for educators, families, and advocates that connects the research of reading, dyslexia awareness, and the whole child.
We're your hosts, Casey Harrison and Emily Gibbons. As two literacy dyslexia specialists, we've come together to talk about literacy, dyslexia, and the connection to the social-emotional impact that it has on our students, their families, and the educators who serve them.
We welcome you to join us on this exciting and educational journey into dyslexia as we come together in literacy.
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Thank you for joining us today. Let's get started.
Welcome back to Together in Literacy. I'm Casey here with my co-host Emily. Hi, Emily. Hi,
Casey. Hi, everyone.
This season we are exploring how learning shapes us, and we're asking a question that connects so much of what we do as educators, therapists, and families. How do our experiences with literacy shape the way we learn, see ourselves, and navigate the world? In part one or episode one of our conversation, the stories we carry, we explored how experiences with reading and writing can influence the stories that we begin to tell ourselves as learners, and we talked about the differences in how individuals acquire literacy skills, the importance of early identification and instruction, and how those experiences can shape our perceptions of what we're capable of doing. And one thing that really stood out in that conversation that Emily and I had was that these experiences don't happen in isolation, and this is something we've been talking about on the Together in Literacy podcast for six seasons now. But the way that our students experience challenges, the way that they receive support, and the way that they themselves recognize the progress that they're making can actually influence not only their academic development but also how they see themselves. And so today's conversation, we are going to be talking about how if our experiences with literacy help shape how we see ourselves as learners or how our students see ourselves as learners, then how can we, as the adults in the room, be more intentional about the experiences that we're creating for our students? Right. What does that look like to provide instruction that builds essential skills while also creating opportunities for meaningful success, belonging, and development of self-advocacy skills and agencies. So, this part two is going to be a pretty short little episode because we want to explore some practical ways that educators, interventionists, therapists, and families, and the learners themselves can support this process. Because our goal is not just to have our students feel good all the time, or just to have them only have the learning. We really want to create conditions in which the this instruction and self development are intertwined, so that our students recognize that you know they are growing as learners. They understand themselves as learners, and they're gaining confidence as they're gaining these skills, so that they are really understanding what they're capable of next. Okay, so
yeah. And before we continue on, don't forget to listen to episode one if you hadn't already, so you can sort of see where we're connecting all of these ideas and with our central focus and question for this particular season, and you can find everything connected to these episodes on TogetherInLiteracy.com. And don't forget, we want you to please follow this podcast. So yeah, so as Casey was mentioning, you know, we're not just talking about like simply talking about children feeling better about reading and writing. We really want to recognize that the confidence and emotional piece in their well-being; those absolutely are paramount to us. Those experiences are deeply connected, right, to the instruction our students receive, the progress they're making, and the opportunities where we have them participate in, so that learning does feel meaningful. So we want our students to feel that they're capable, right? And we want them to we want to be looking carefully at. Instruction, which we're going to talk about a little bit today, and how we can respond to their needs. We want to talk about really how we can connect learner behavior and self-perception to the specific literacy demands of a task. So we're going to start with that first, and by doing that, we're going to start with thinking about a particular situation that you know what possibly a lot of educators and families will recognize, and it might sound familiar to you. So we kind of put together a scenario where there would be, let's say, a third grader who's bright, curious, so much to contribute during classroom discussions, right? And but when it's time to read independently, they become quiet or maybe removed. Or when it's time to write, maybe they're only able to produce a sentence or two, or just can't quite get those thoughts on paper, even though they have so much to say in conversations. Right, maybe in a group discussion, but when it comes time to put words on paper, that's where your hearings may may start to hear some avoidant comments like "I'm just not good at this" or "I don't know what to write." Right? How many times have you heard that? "Or I don't know what to say here," or even expressing just complete a dislike for writing or reading. So, how can we really interpret those types of experiences? And here's what we want to be careful about our our perspective. Okay, we can hear what a child says in those situations and and know that that's what they're communicating, but we just want to be careful about the assumptions we might be making, so we might interpret what they're presenting as avoidance or lack of effort or motivation. But but what if there's truly something underlying all that? What if this is a student who truly is having difficulty with decoding and or encoding, right? What if spelling has just become so effortful that just the very idea of getting an idea onto paper, it because think about all of the skills that have to integrate to actually put pencil to paper, is just entirely too overwhelming, and so the response we're seeing may be connected to the academic demands of the task, but there's an emotional side to that that is coming out perhaps as behavior or avoidance of some kind.
And I think too that brings up you know as those demands increase from grade to grade, you may see different learner behaviors come out as well, and we really want to be aware, really paying attention to what it is that the student is showing, so that we can not focus just on the behavior, but really ask ourselves, you know, well, what is it about this task that's perhaps posing a hurdle? You know, what is it that the student already knows? Is there something that I need to go in and backfill to help them. Is there a scaffold I need to put into place? But really, looking at where is it that the learning is breaking down for the student as those increase across the grades.
Yeah, and for parents listening to this episode, this is where you may be noticing these particular behaviors in the home environment when it comes to dealing with homework, right? And we have a really, really great episode on the after-school kind of breakdown episode. It was restraint collapse.
Yes, I just
don't remember the exact number, but it was from season five. So we will show that. That is all communication to us as well about the needs of this particular child or this student. So we want to be thinking, well, what did the task require for them to be able to feel successful? Right? What is our? What did the student already know? Like, what were their prerequisite skills? Are we entering them into a task where they don't have the prerequisite skills or the foundation, right? So that then we can look more carefully at where the learning is breaking down and think about what can we change in either in the instruction or the learning environment that can help lead that student into experiencing more meaningful progress, so there's a few questions we can be thinking about. Like if you're thinking like, what are some of the common signs of avoidance? We talked about a few already that might be connected to unmet literacy needs, like avoidance or a complete just shut down when it comes to wanting to perhaps complete a literacy task, and then we can distinguish maybe a skill deficit or a performance difficulty or a student maybe that's trying to just protect themselves from an unsuccessful experience. So, like changing the subject when it's about to start a particular, you're about to start a particular point of the lesson. Like we've seen that numerous times. Like bringing up something completely unrelated, right? Or how might a learner's response change right when an adult recognizes that underlying difficulty rather than focusing only on the behavior, so that an there may be an adult that has observed that child enough times to be keenly aware that hmm, I can tell when we're about to approach dictation, for instance, this is where things might shift, and because of that awareness, the adult is able to change their trajectory a little bit more to make the task approachable and successful. Whether that means when a sentence is dictated and you have manipulatives for one manipulative for each word down on the table, where they can use that to track whether that's giving them a visual of how to edit their sentence afterwards, so that they can feel a little more ownership over their work. Those are all small pieces that we can be putting in place, just from the OG perspective.
I also think it opens the door for opportunities of for conversation with the student to ask them. You know, hey, I've I've noticed that this is a task that is not your favorite. Tell me, tell me what it is. What are some things that you're noticing? Where what's what part's hard for you? What part are you liking? what What is the part that you're not wanting to do? Like, get them to start to think about that as well can really provide you with some answers about what your next instructional steps are going to be. For absolutely,
you know, Casey, you may encounter this too, but like some of my students will sometimes they want to try and switch up the order of the lesson. Yeah, can we do this part first, or do we have to do That part, so that's important. What Casey was just mentioning, some of those questions, like, well, what is it that you're experiencing when we're about to, you know, approach this particular task, right? Try and see if we can get that out of them, and and devise ways together with those students to make it feel more approachable, right?
Absolutely, and you might be wondering, gosh, okay, guys, I know that. Yeah, we we need to pay attention to behavior, but I'm I'm really working on this academics, right? Absolutely, but we we really do want to to think back to what research reminds us, and research does remind us that reading achievement and how students see themselves as readers can influence one another. So this behavior is something we need to tune into. We we need to have awareness of this. It gives us a reason to attend to both. Right, this research is this understanding that they do influence one another. And and so while we want to ensure that instruction addresses the actual reading need of the student, we also need to have awareness of how the student is seeing themselves, how they're perceiving their ability to complete this task at hand, and then thinking about that: what do they need? Scaffolds? Do they need extra supports? Do you need to go back and reteach, like what is it that your role then becomes in that in that part of the lesson? Yes. So the one
big takeaway we want to help connect in this episode for you, so that we're changing that learning experience through instruction, is this piece of advice, and that is to make your and the academic connections explicit. So that is we're talking about explicit, direct instruction, and we know from the IDA, the International Dyslexia Association, describes effective structured literacy as explicit, systematic, cumulative, and responsive to student performance, and the Institute of Education Sciences also recommends direct teaching of sound-letter relationships, decoding, word analysis, writing words, and connected text reading. So when we are designing our instruction to be explicit and direct. That is where we are helping to shift and change the learner's experience, so that they understand what exactly is laid out for them in this lesson plan and what they need to be doing with you in this learning journey, yeah. So we want to be thinking. We're going to return back to that scenario where we had the the child and the third grader that you know kind of felt like they were struggling with writing or maybe avoidant with writing tasks, and we can think about things that we could be doing from a social emotional side. We can certainly. Provide you know things like encouragement or tell them oh you have great ideas they're wonderful but we could also remind them that mistakes are a part of learning and building that awareness and that all those things may have a place but if that student doesn't have the direct instruction and explicit instruction with spelling knowledge and transcription of skills needed to get ideas onto paper. Any amount of encouragement that we're giving them isn't going to address the underlying difficulty, and that's the point we want to make here: is that without that explicit instruction, yeah, you know what? That no amount of encouragement is really going to move the needle for us, okay? Both academically or socially. Casey's like nodding her head in like agreement so much here, so I'll let her take over. Well,
I agree 100%, and the students know it too, right? When and I know I've said this in previous seasons, but when when I'll have students, they will, and I'll ask them about their learning experience when they come to me, and what it is that they feel they need as learners. Sometimes they're shocked that someone is asking them about that or engaging a conversation like this. Like they're you're part of this journey, but also they will say, "Oh, you know, so and so is so nice," and they try, but they just really don't know how to help me. And often that's that's coming from there. They'll tell the oh, you're doing a great job, and then the student comes. They're like, I know I'm not doing a good job. Yes, so that this is not actually good, but the teacher keeps telling me it's good. I need help, and so we want to be sure as what like that we're not sugarcoating things with students either. That we're being really authentic. So tell them when something is good, or tell them what what specifically is good about that task that they're doing, not just a general good. Because the students know, particularly students who are struggling, they they are well aware that they are having certain areas in their academic journey in which they are not finding success, and when they're being told that it's good, they know it's they know it's not true, and it breaks down the the trust. So, yeah, and
the authenticity I think is so important, especially as our kids get older, get those older students, they have learned to cut through all of the BS, right, and. and are looking for someone who truly hears them.
Yes,
for sure.
And I agree with you. Yes, I find that my older kids look through the BS. My younger kids, though, will be like, "But my teacher says I'm doing great. Why? Why am I here?" And so then it it becomes not telling them that they're struggling, but being like, well, we're just working on some some of these pieces, you know, and and having different kinds of conversations. So it's interesting how the words that we say truly impact students' perception of themselves as learners. So
yes, yes, our language certainly matters, and so we also want to, as we are thinking about a student such as the one with the struggling with writing, let's keep in mind that this is where our diagnostic and prescriptive teaching are going to become even more important and interwoven with explicit instruction. We can't have explicit instruction for these children without the diagnostic and prescriptive teaching. And we have had several episodes on that discussion as part of our Orton-Gillingham principles. We are thoroughly invested in using a diagnostic and prescriptive approach with all of our students, so we're looking at their student responses. Right, we're going to analyze what those, what maybe their response and or errors are telling us, and adjust the instruction accordingly. And that means when we say adjusting, developing prescriptions that are working for that for those students. So, if there's a student maybe that's struggling with representing particular sounds and spelling, like a particular orthographic pattern choice, we can provide explicit instruction, and we can carefully select types of practice opportunities that will address those patterns in a meaningful way. So, if the difficulty might be like sentence construction, then we could examine that skill as well. If we're talking about this writing student, but we also want to remember that even though a student may have strong language, like strong oral language and wonderful ideas, they absolutely need intensive support with written expression, and that is where our explicit instruction really needs to be happening. So, point here: when instruction is matched to what the student needs, we're creating opportunities for the student to experience something. Different, and what is that? They are starting to see that the task is more manageable. There is a higher rate of success involved, and they're perceiving that as manageable. And they recognize, "Hey, I'm learning something here that maybe I didn't know before, or that I couldn't do before, but now I can. So that is where we're seeing meaningful confidence begin to develop, and it's not just you know oh we told them oh you just believe in yourself you can do it, like you know, being their cheerleader, we are actually giving them the tools and the skills and the knowledge base in a meaningful way that is making progress possible for them.
Yeah.
So we're going to talk about an example of that, Casey.
And so, as Emily was saying when our students are having when they have instruction that's matching what they need and they're showing they're given opportunities to create success then our students can begin to understand what it is that they need and they're starting to connect that instruction and their own understanding of their learning, and so we really want our students to be developing learning agency and also self advocacy skills. So a student who has developed agency is more likely to advocate for themselves. Now we'll we'll have some episodes on agency and self advocacy, but let's just do a quick little breakdown. So, agency is the internal belief in one's own ability to take ownership of their learning. It includes a belief that they're responsible for their own accommodations, for their successes, and for their learning trajectory. And we see this as our students gain ownership, autonomy, confidence, and understanding of their own strengths and challenges. So, as Emily was saying, as that student is starting to see the progress, right? We are tapping into their own understanding of what they're what they're learning, and and they're starting to be active participants in their own learning journey. So you might have a student that is starting to understand their strengths and challenges, and so they're thinking, "Oh, you know, the vowel sounds are tricky. That chart really helped me. I need to get it or ask for it." Right? Where then self advocacy, which is something we talk about a lot, but that's the ability to communicate your own needs, your rights, and your interests. So it becomes this external action. And when we we see this, when our students then ask for help, when they request their accommodations, when they set boundaries, when they speak up for what they need to find success, and it is the practical application of agency in real world scenarios. So we have to kind of understand the role that each of those play. But self advocacy is going to be how our students act upon their self, their sense of agency, that internal belief. So when we're combining both of those, we're really helping to foster independence, and we're building confidence, and we're allowing students to navigate their academic and life challenges. So we want to make sure that we are creating opportunities, and for the the development of agency and self advocacy within the academics that we are presenting to our students.
Yeah, and the larger discussion of advocacy and agency and the differences in in between the two is something that Casey and I have been discussing that we will get into a a bigger episode on, and it's an important one. So we just wanted to sort of give you just a briefer overview, and but it is part of the overall focus question for this episode, and it's it's an important one. It
really is, and it will have it. It will be part of the conversation of the whole season. Yeah, it is one of those one of those goals. And if you are attending LDA this year or the Learning Disabilities America conference in February, I'm actually speaking directly on this topic, so that's of interest to you. Yeah,
and where is that taking place, Casey? It's in
Las Vegas. Okay,
in Las Vegas. So February Las Vegas LDA conference. Yeah, if you're listening for our 2027, there you go. Um, that's exciting. Yeah. So we are thinking about those meaningful steps. Right, the learner is. Beginning to recognize how developing self awareness and recognizing their own needs, and where and we've been we have been nurturing that by providing scaffolds that actually help them recognize their own needs. One of the scaffolds that I love to provide, and in that is an example, is providing student choice. When students are offered choice, they begin to recognize their own needs and are able to begin to develop the first steps to self-advocacy. And they understand that support is something they can access. It's and it is not something that they should ever feel ashamed of needing. It's just part of who they are as a learner. So back to our guided question: How do our experiences with literacy shape the way we learn, see ourselves, and navigate the world? The experiences we create in our explicit instruction, just to bring that back and help students begin to develop the skills and understanding to have a greater voice in their learning. We can provide those learning opportunities for them. We can embed questions in there, elicit questions from them that get them talking about the particular concept or words or the way words are connected with one another. Whether that would be a spelling concept or even a morphological lesson where we're building our vocabulary. Really, those learning experiences are helping them develop the greater voice, and so when we're thinking as we get further on, like how can we help our students become more active participants in recognizing their progress? Like what can we set up for them? Whether that be like a little question that we ask them maybe towards the end of the lesson before they leave, or a question to open in a warm up. What language can we as educators use to help students explain their learning needs? Like I learn best when I have this, or how do we balance independence with appropriate accommodations and continued instruction, because it's always about helping them build into greater independence, right? And what will agency look like for our younger students who we're still developing the language to describe their needs, right? And this is not a younger student scenario, but this is a quick example, just from one of my own teenagers. My one of my twin boys came home and said, "Oh, this class is so annoying." I said, "Okay, well, when you say annoying, are is it because the work is feeling really hard right now? Is it because there's an assignment that you might have fallen back on. Like, like, like, let's dig a little more deeply, and so it felt it wasn't so much the language of using the word annoying, but he felt overwhelmed because the workload has been increased significantly in eighth grade, and so we kind of dug a little bit deeper. But it's helping them provide the language of what they're feeling and experiencing, whether they're younger or older. So annoying can actually be interpreted as a lot of different things with a teenager. Wouldn't you agree that with that one, Casey?
Yes.
So, just I wanted to bring that up because I think the language that we help provide with a child is just so important, so that they're more precisely describing their needs and how. And from there, then we can develop a better course of action to to guide them and help them think about, you know, what's your plan A, what's your plan B,
right? Yeah, and we'll talk more about this, but I think the language, as Emily's saying, the language that we use is very important in developing a bigger, like a more broad understanding of our students. And we have to, we have to first model that language, and then help the students build that language, and then pass that off into independence. So that language and that recognition of where our students are, and what, and that reflective practice really should be part of the work that we're doing. So anytime we can dig deeper, ask questions, get them to start to communicate more than fine or bad or good or annoying. Yeah, that is that's that's developing that those metacognitive skills, which are really necessary. Those meta linguistic skills as well.
Yeah. So we kind of broke down some quick tips for different groups here. So for educators and therapists, when we're thinking about our students, we can make sure. That our learning goals are really clear for the student and create opportunities that recognize progress. And how do we do that? Because you know what, that's a pretty broad statement. So Casey and I really think when we're thinking about the learning goals and the opportunities, we can we create those based off of our observations made in prior lessons, and we did an entire episode on the power of observation, and we'll link that. But it's it's within our observations in the way students may respond at certain learning points or different portions of the lesson that is going to drive what the next learning goals or opportunities may be. So it's the power of observation from prior lessons that will help predict what we're going to do moving forward. So if an educator or therapist, keep in mind that those observational notes are super super important.
Yes, and Emily and I have talked about how we really firmly believe that teaching, particularly teaching students with dyslexia, requires both the science and the art. And your observations are tapping into that art of teaching. As someone who is working with students who need additional supports, or really, really knowledgeable people who who understand literacy development, child development, and the emotional impact that dyslexia can have on our students. You have to really tap into that power of observation because it is it is just as important as the as the like reading and literacy data that you're collecting, if not more, because it it should be what's determining your next steps, coming up with those diagnostic and prescriptive measures, telling you when to be adaptive. That is something that we really want to tap into. So understanding like how our observations and tapping into the student in front of us is going to be really, really powerful,
