You're listening to the Together in Literacy podcast, a podcast for educators, families, and advocates that connects the research of reading, dyslexia awareness, and the whole child.
We're your hosts, Casey Harrison and Emily Gibbons. As two literacy dyslexia specialists, we've come together to talk about literacy, dyslexia, and the connection to the social-emotional impact that it has on our students, their families, and the educators who serve them. We welcome you to join us on this exciting and educational journey into dyslexia as we come together in literacy. Please be sure to subscribe to this podcast and visit
us at www. togetherinliteracy.com. Thank you for joining us today. Let's get started.
Welcome, everyone, to the Together in Literacy podcast. I am your host Emily Gibbons, and with my lovely co-host Casey Harrison. Hi, Casey. Hi, Emily. Hi, everyone. And here we are in season six, and we want to thank you so much for being patient with us because we're off to a little bit of a slow start. What a busy start to the school year for both Casey and myself. We had heard from some listeners asking, "Hey, when are you starting season six?"
And I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, but you know we we needed a little more time, so we appreciate your patience. Here we are, season six,
of the Together in Literacy podcast. It's like I'm kind of surreal to say season six. I mean we we've been doing this a while now, and we're thrilled to be back with with you. So don't forget to follow this podcast wherever you listen, so that you will get that notification when a new episode drops. We're planning to have maybe one or two episodes per month for you published, and we always roll those out on Mondays.
If you have, if you're a first-time listener, welcome! Thank you so much. Definitely go back and check through our our episodes from the other seasons. We've had some fantastic guests in the past. We really think you'll enjoy this podcast. So we let started sort of like this really special thing in season five, and we're doing it again in season six. We had this focus question,
and Casey, remind everybody what was the focus question for season five. What do students with dyslexia really need? Aha, yeah. And so any time we had a guest or any particular topic, we were always steering it back to that real central focus question. And in the last episode of season five, if you want to listen to that, you can hear we we kind of clipped what all the guests said into what they thought people with dyslexia truly our students with dyslexia truly need. So you can read sort of that as a wrap-up episode that was from season five. So we're going to switch it up. We've got a new focus question for season six, okay, and we will be talking about that today as sort of an intro. This is a bit of a reflective episode to get sort of get you thinking about what the season will be focusing on, and and thinking about your own students, even your own personal journey with learning to read. So there,
we're calling this episode "The Stories We Carry." When learning feels different, whether you
have dyslexia in your listening, or know someone with dyslexia, or teach someone with dyslexia. We know that learning feels different, but we're going to really focus on how literacy experiences shape the stories we tell ourselves, and how early literacy experiences and our differences in the ease of learning. Right, we think about the word ease,
our instructional assumptions,
and even the missed opportunities for early support can really shape a child's academic and emotional trajectory. We think about those missed opportunities, like our early ID,
right, or maybe mismatched intervention. How does that shape the trajectory
in the long run? So we are going to be discussing, you know, just changing the story from from understanding what dyslexia is to action.
So, how are educators and families and learners? How can we recognize
that there are some maybe some of those narratives that may feel sort of unhelpful or maybe respond to specific literacy needs? And how can we build meaningful opportunities for success? But not only that, to lead into both self advocacy and furthermore agency, which is what we all as human beings truly crave. We are all craving a sense of agency in everything we do and in all of our decision making.
So, really, really important
one. And here we are. I know it's been a while since you may have listened to us, all right? But here we are. We're you know we've been busy working with our students this year, and we we just love having conversations with educators and families, and and reflecting on how we're shaping our literacy development. So as we return for this season, we kept really coming back
to things that connect so much to our own work. And if you are a first-time listener, just as a reminder, Casey and I work directly with children in intervention. We don't just have our online businesses. We
are really living. We're living the dream, Casey. Right now,
we are working with students. We're working with teachers. I work with many Orton-Gillingham trainees. I work with with teachers directly in schools, and I work with students. And Casey does as well. So we know learning to read and write involves complex processes, right? We and we've had topics about so many things like phonemic awareness, decoding, spelling, fluency, language comprehension, and all those components that have contributed to skilled literacy. And we want to you know that, and I'm sure you know this statement already that learning doesn't happen in isolation. It is our learned our learning experiences that can shape how we see and view ourselves, how we engage with others, and what we believe we're truly capable of achieving. And so that is where we're heading. Yeah, that's where we're heading. We thought this was a perfect spring next step from last season's big question, and so, you know, we talked a lot about what it is that our students with dyslexia need, and to this season, we're really going to lean into how learning shapes us. And so, through this season, as Emily said, we're going to explore literacy development, that instructional experiences, identity, belonging, and agency, and how they really are interconnected. So we don't want to separate the academic and the emotional aspects of learning because, in reality, that they really do influence one another, and that's really what's going to be part of our guiding question this season, you know, how do our experiences with literacy shape the way we learn, the way we see ourselves, the way our students see ourselves, and how they navigate the world? And alongside that big question, we are continuing to ask what this means then for the way that we teach and support learners?
How can we create literacy experiences that build essential skills while also nurturing confidence, belonging, and as Emily said, leading into self-advocacy and ultimately agency, and we'll talk about the differences of those in some upcoming episodes. But we really want these conversations to bring together the research, the realities of instruction, and as Emily said, we are both actively working with students and families, and then also the lived experiences of individuals with dyslexia, and so we want you to leave with something practical to think about or to try. So our episodes are going to be grounded, yes, in the research, but then also in that practical application.
What really just stood out to me, Casey, was talking about the realities of instruction. Okay, what really thinking about? Sure, there's the theory side in education, but we want to really get into what is the reality of take what is taking place truly in the intervention setting for sure. Absolutely. So today we're going to start with that topic that feels really foundational for this season, which is the stories we carry. And as Emily had said, you know, how do our earliest reading and writing experiences
shape the stories that we begin telling ourselves about who we are as learners?
At.
If we think about
our own experiences with learning to read,
some of us may have
happy thoughts and and emotions that went along with that, and that trajectory of having an ease with which reading came to you just made school fun and exciting. Others may be thinking back and and realizing, oh, that was a horrible time.
And so,
even at our very earliest
opportunities or experiences with learning and education and within the education system,
that
experience can really set the foundation for the trajectory of your school and really the trajectory of your life. Emily, do you remember what it was like learning to read when you were younger? You know, Casey and I were having this conversation earlier. So I went to a small private Catholic school growing up, and and we we
had our reading groups in the first grade. We had the three leveled groups, and I was telling her, and I can't believe I remembered them. The
high group was they were the Red Devils. The middle group they were the
the Blue Angels,
and then the low group they were the White Knights, and everybody knew
what those groups meant. Yeah, we had our little basil series, Silver Productian. May I come in?
Right. Oh gosh, I'm really, really, really aging myself saying that. And we had our plaid phonics workbooks, and we had our little box of little cardboard letters to take out. And man, oh man, those little letters that we like you had to punch them out or whatever and put them on our desk, and you know the letters wound up on the floor. You couldn't find the letter A. You couldn't find the S. Whatever. I just remember
in those leveled groups, I remember my teacher shifting me into different groups at different points in the year. I remember starting off in the low group, and I remember her speaking to my mom about her want my mom helping me a little bit more at home and and doing flashcards with sight words. We would do that, and and all in
all, I recall it being, I think,
an experience that wasn't traumatic. It was one that you know felt effortful for sure.
But my mom, I remember her relaying to me. It was like one of these things was like after Christmas, you know, the first of the year. It was like that's when things really felt like they took off. So kind of a typical reading experience back in the early '80s, you know, if you were looking at first grade, Emily. I don't know, Casey. How about you? Yeah, I was also in
oh,
very early '80s when I was school,
like 1980, yeah, kindergarten. But you know, I I don't remember
learning to read. I remember going to school. I had a fabulous kindergarten teacher. We did half day kindergarten back then. Yes, and it was really more of a Montessori-based style. But my teacher, I remember her teaching phonics. I remember her teaching letter names. I remember doing sky writing. I remember her focusing on handwriting and sounds and all of those things in a very fun, playful way, but also completely multimodal.
And that I think really set the stage probably for the ease with which I went into first grade, and I don't really remember
learning to read.
And I think you know if we're thinking about those early trajectories for students, well, Emily and I both had somewhat happy experiences. There are children with which acquiring
that early language and early foundational reading skills, like sounds and letters and all of that, are
much
harder. And when that becomes much harder than
thinking about that experience for school, what impact does that have on them that they are carrying forward? What is that story for them in the educational sense about what it is that they carry forward?
I I know now
working with students that often the story they carry forward
is, well, I I'm dumb, or I don't get it, or
I hate reading, or I I just want to play something else instead,
and start to see even at this very very early age with these early foundational skills when students.
Are struggling that that trajectory and those stories that they carry forward into their educational experience really do become lasting, and we have to remember that the stories that they carry about their early literacy do carry into their adulthood,
and furthermore will
indirectly get passed down to their own children, and the way our families approach education, whether that is with an open mind, whether that is with trepidation, whether that is with trauma,
there are families who are not open to having educational testing. That's because perhaps of their lived experience with learning how to read. Maybe it was tough for them. There are some who recognize that this was a real struggle for them, and so are more open. So I think we have to remember that every family that we are working with very closely
may not be as open as or perceptive or receptive to
looking into
how getting their children maybe the help that they need or just have some avoidance towards it. Yeah, and I think that actually comes back to our season's question, right? What are the stories that are being carried forward? As Emily said, it's generational. It can be generational stories about education, and actually, that makes me think as well as Dion's episode with us last year, and he talked about generational literacy and generational conversations about education.
So the stories that we carry forward are very, very powerful, and the stories we tell ourselves are very powerful. And so we have to think about our students, you know, that are when when Emily said, "Oh, I knew what group I was in, and I knew when I was moving between groups." The students know that. So we have to be very mindful as well about what it is, what's our role in helping to
change the trajectory of learning, but also to be very mindful of what it is, what those stories are that the students are carrying forward about their own educational experiences.
Absolutely, and
laying out really sort of like when we think about the parts of a story map, but for how we want
a child to perceive, like what their own personal problems are, what is their setting in literacy, what are their possible solutions. So if we think about it in the realm of a story map, I mean, how can we set that stage for them where they are beginning to feel those early success successes? How are they beginning to feel that first sense of confidence instead of fear? Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that really brings us into something that's really important in the research world in understanding that learning, the acquisition of reading and writing
may not be the same experience or pacing for every single learner throughout the time. Not everyone is going to fall within the same lock and step
path or time frame, and so then we have to really think about what that means for our instructional decisions, as well as the conversations that we're having, so that our students are finding success no matter where they are in their learning journey, to help them kind of change that narrative that they're that they're carrying forward. And one of the things that Emily and I tend to go back to often
is, you know, the different research that we carry forward that helps influence our own instructional decisions. But Nancy Young, she has updated the her ladder of reading and writing, and so now she has a 2026 update, and we've talked about that in the past. Nancy's ladder of reading and writing, we've had her on the on the podcast, but it really provides a useful framework for discussing the wide range of ease in literacy acquisition,
and the update really is placing some greater emphasis on implicit learning and the need to match instruction. Emily, you'll love this match instruction, provide appropriate scaffolding and practice to our individual learners, right? So that that is that is singing my song, Casey. Yes, finding success, and then when our students are finding success, that changes the narrative that they're telling themselves about their own learning journey. It's so important. So, if you haven't checked it out yet, I do recommend going to Nancy Young's website. We'll link it in the show notes. Looking at the updated ladder, but just kind of.
Thinking about our students understanding that they are on this academic journey, but it is intertwined with
with how they feel, with this social, emotional, or this emotional well being as as well, right? So when we have students who are encountering difficulties or aren't making the expected progress. You know, do we first question the learner's effort, or are we questioning instead whether that instructional approach is meeting that learner's needs? Right, and and acknowledging that we have children who are going to acquire reading easily,
but also students that are going to need additional structured support, and I think that kind of brings us into
other research. You know, we love Dr. Nadine Gab and the work that she's doing, particularly in the area of early identification and what that means for students in in those stories that they carry forward with themselves, both academically, and then also that trajectory for their emotional well being.
Right. How
having the research from Dr. Gab on early ID is truly helping to shape and design the story and their trajectory for these children. When we think about a child's learning trajectory, why that's so hard to say for a second? There,
we're not only thinking about the reading skills they're developing; we're thinking about their experiences. Like when a child is entering school, their outlook: Are they excited to learn? Are they eager to participate? They have confidence in their abilities when they repeatedly encounter literacy tasks
repeatedly that cannot yet they cannot yet yet complete successfully, particularly without appropriate instruction, those experiences may begin influencing how they see themselves as a learner, as a human being. How that crosses over into many other areas of their lives. Where are they feeling success, early successes, right? And when you have that constant encounter with feeling
unsuccessful, then that is reshaping things. And we have always gone back in as part of our principles of this podcast to make sure that we are tying in these episodes with the social emotional piece, and by addressing this conversation, I think we're really trying to make sure we're always bringing that back with our discussion of teaching and the research and things like that. Yeah, and I'm so excited that you know Emily and I have been. Gosh, we've known each other now for 10 plus years, and how we met was because we were both talking about literacy, but we also were talking about the social emotional piece and how we cannot separate them out. They really are intertwined, and and they need to be. We have to think about the the stories that the children are carrying forward in their academic journey, and it's exciting for me to hear more researchers talking about this connection between academics and risk of dyslexia in terms of the emotional outcomes for our children, both Dr. Gab has talked about it. But even the IDA updated definition or description has that in there, talking about how early intervention, right? Instead of waiting for a child that has struggled long enough, and that's in my air quotes. Since oh boy, long enough, long enough, right, to demonstrate significant failure, we can shift the conversation to asking, you know, what are those early indicators telling us, and what can we do in response? We have to to do that. We have to start changing the conversation, and that's not to say that students who have,
you know, not received that intervention or that it's too late. It's never ever too late. No, but think about
the difference in a student's
self, like self narrative about themselves as a learner,
how different it could be if we provide
early appropriate intervention and scaffolding from the get go instead of them experiencing repeated failure over and over again. Yeah, and pro and perhaps prolonging the efforts of what we're doing,
prolonging in the sense that we're prolonging the path
to get to the point where we can get that true ID and match the appropriate
page.
Intervention prescription that those children need. When we prolong that,
I mean, think about
there. You're just continuing the same pathway of still feeling that repeated unsuccessful experience.
Yes, and I love that you talked about that repeated part, and also about how important it is to match
instruction, and and what does that actually mean? These will be things we'll talk about as we get into I think so this season because
matching instruction for a student with dyslexia means that we really need to have a strong understanding of that student's learning profile. We have to understand what is the comprehensive approach that is going to be best for the student,
not just sort of like small group here, small group there, or piecemealing things together, but really looking at a more comprehensive approach for our students
that would be in that orange and particularly the red on Nancy's ladder, so that we are
that we're we're not just looking for students being at risk, but we're actually doing something about it that that is very meaningful and is going to completely change the students' outcome.
Yes, and we have spoken about the importance of looking at our student learning profiles. Yeah,
multiple times in previous episodes, we can we can link one of those. I think that would be helpful for people to to dig into. They were not discussing Learning styles,
learning profiles, right? And we're also not talking about IQ. What we're what we're talking learning profiles. We're we're looking at here's here's how the student is presenting.
These are the particular areas, either academic or or otherwise, in which we are seeing strengths, patterns of strengths, and patterns of need. And Emily and I talk a lot about how that should be what we're looking at for determining diagnostic and prescriptive measures for that student, so that we are using our precious time wisely for students with dyslexia,
their time is precious. That their time for acquiring reading and writing is so important. We have got to get it right the first time, and I think the the more in tune we are with understanding the students that are sitting in front of us, the better we are at providing that appropriate instruction. Yeah, having that learning profile helps us to design stronger prescriptions. Yeah,
right. And then you know, so that's kind of talking about like the academic piece, but we also want to
have awareness that when our students are experiencing that repeated struggle, those academic struggles, that becomes can really become part of their personal narrative, and we really want to be mindful about how
students who are experiencing struggles early on or those early reading performances, what role they play in the development of our students' reading self-concept, and we do have some research on that. Chapman and Tunmer in '97 did some research surrounding that, looking at longitudinal research with students, and we do see that we have some reciprocal relationships between reading achievement and reading self concept, and so we have to, you know, we can't just think, oh, if we just do the academics only, we're good. We have to have this understanding that that they are connected, and that self narrative is is part of that. So supporting the idea that really, yes, the skills and beliefs about one's ability can influence one another over time. Yes.
So coming back to as we're
starting off this episode, bringing us back to the stories we carry, we're thinking about where the academic and emotional experiences are becoming so clearly connected and intertwined, right? And we know there's research looking at how those early achievement rates will relate to the development of our reading self concept, our own self awareness of how we perceive ourselves as as readers, and so we want to be thinking about that children really are developing beliefs about themselves as readers very early in their school experiences. And if you have ever worked with a challenged first grader, they certainly are coming with those perceptions and early school experiences already, and and have a very strong feeling.
About that, so while we may be as educators assessing decoding and spelling and fluency, we want to be understanding that children are also experiencing what it feels like to participate in those tasks. Right? They know when something feels difficult, and and and they are comparing their experiences with those of their peers, or they're hearing feedback in different ways from different adults. The feedback that they might be getting at home, we know, might not be the same feedback that they're getting in school. And so, because of that, they're beginning to make judgments about what those Experiences mean, yeah.
So though sometimes those beliefs will show up in ways that, like, we might not immediately recognize. There might be some compensatory habits that start setting in, like you know, kids that want to avoid reading aloud. They're choosing simpler words in their writing because they're afraid to that they're going to misspell something or write it incorrectly, or just the whole
"I don't care" type mentality. When reality is, they may truly care very, very deeply. But this
the
road to effective reading and writing is just becoming much much more rockier and mountainous for them, and so we want to be really careful not to assume that any of these avoidance behaviors are because they you know might not be because they dislike school or maybe it's connected more to their shame or anxiety surrounding their learning experiences, so we can just be curious and be thinking about like what is the student experiencing? What tasks are do they you know what does this require for them to start feeling more successful? What are maybe do they have some skills that are secure, but what truly still feels difficult? Because behavior is communication, right? And we respond to the behavior without understanding the learning need. Then let's be careful with that. We might have a missed opportunity, an important one. So those missed opportunities are, you know, instead of like you need to try harder, Versus understanding the underlying reasons why it's perceived that way,
and when our feedback is connected really to more of our explicit instruction and meaningful progress,
our students are going to see they have something really concrete to lean on to work for, and to be able to actually see tangible successes with that, and communicating that to them that meaningful progress when we spot it and see it, and they feel it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and so
you know, as we just keep this conversation today has been just reaffirming for me, or you know, bringing us back to this idea that really learning experiences matter in ways that extend far beyond the academic skills that we're teaching, and we have to keep that in mind. You know, when our children are learning to read and write, they're also developing an understanding of themselves as learners, and I know for myself that's something that I have,
I feel very strongly about, and that's something that I've I've been more attuned to throughout my 28 years of teaching. You know that those experiences that my students are having,
they really influence their confidence, their willingness to participate in their choices that they make along the way,
and while we cannot control every experience that a learner has, we can
promise that we will be there with them on that journey. You know, learning will not always be easy, but we can be really intentional about the experiences that we create with students,
and helping them navigate that, and ensuring that the instruction we're providing
is supporting and moving them forward in their learning, but also honoring and and acknowledging that that emotional piece that comes along with it, and helping
to to build those skills that are needed, so that they are starting to change their own narrative about their learning.
Yes. So as we close today, we'd love for you to reflect on this question. You can write it down if you want.
What stories might learners be developing about themselves through their experiences with literacy? You can ask that about yourself and from your own past, as Casey and I both shared, or think about your own children if you're a parent listening,
or.
Your own students, all right, and what is their awareness?
Do they have self-awareness about their experiences? You'd be surprised. I'm sure they do. That takes some more open communication and conversation with them, right?
And what can we do to help shape what comes next, and that's what we're going to really be getting into. So when we get into our next conversation, we come back for the next episode in season six. We're going to take it one step further, and we're going to explore what it looks like to begin changing those stories, and we're going to change them through discussions about intentional instruction, okay,
meaningful feedback,
and opportunities for developing
and fostering agency,
okay, and that is a those are some really really big topics we just threw out at you, ones that for us, when we are looking at the whole learner,
really shape how we as teachers design our lessons for our students. It is critically valuable to us, and we really truly believe it is valuable for all of you and your children,
whether you're a parent or a teacher, so we really before we leave today,
want to remind you: learning shapes us, and our experiences shape how we learn.
So when you you see our show notes, we will have links to the research and some of the things that we mentioned in this episode. Just as
you know, we have our website www.
togetherinliteracy. com. But Casey and I, because it's called Together in Literacy, have come together, and we each have our own websites. So we would love to just share what those are if you are new to this podcast. So Casey, why don't you share your website? Yeah, that would be great. I'd love to connect with you. You can find [email protected],
and you can find [email protected], and both websites are
are just packed with information that you're really going to want to check out, and we really appreciate the support of this effort. And we we love being able to create these episodes for you. So we thank you for for all the support you can provide for us. So
leave us a rating. Leave us some feedback.
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